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Why Access Matters: A podcast by Accessibrand (thoughts and talks about accessibility)
Accessibility! Such a small word for such big and far-reaching impact; what do you think of when you hear it?
Hello again everyone!
I am Jolene MacDonald from Accessibrand, and I’d like to welcome you to the 4th episode of our second season and the 9th episode overall of our podcast “Why Access Matters”.
Since our inaugural episode in June of 2022, “Why Access Matters,” proudly and happily brings you thoughts and talks about accessibility every last Friday of each month, and we invite you to listen to our first season if you haven’t already, available on various platforms. All of our episodes to date are independent and don’t require prior listening, but the more you hear from our guests, the better you can learn and grow alongside us as our many wonderful guests talk to us about the all-important concept of accessibility!
Now that you’ve thought about what accessibility means to you, let us also ask: what is social justice to you, and do you think it has any link or connection to accessibility?
[Music]
To better understand how important it is to break down barriers and address societal openness to neurodiversity, I talked to Alicia Jarvis. Alicia is a Diversity, Equity & Inclusion researcher and strategist. She is a creative force for change and a thought leader, offering a positive perspective and innovative solutions to complex problems relating to universal usability.
In this conversation, she spoke as an advocate (and not as her position in the Bell company, where she is the Senior Product Manager, Accessibility Portfolio).
She shared her valuable thoughts about the importance of accessibility, her difficult but fruitful personal journey, and many other key points about identifying our barriers and moving toward a more accessible world.
[Music]
Why Access Matters: A podcast by Accessibrand (thoughts and talks about accessibility)
[Beginning of the interview]
Jolene MacDonald
Hi, Alicia, thank you for taking the time to be with us today. We're so excited that you have agreed to be on our podcast. I'd love to know how you'd like to introduce yourself today.
Alicia Jarvis
Sure, I'm Alicia Jarvis. I'm a Senior Product Manager for the Accessibility Portfolio at Bell. My pronouns are she and her. And I have brown hair and brown eyes. And I'm white presenting. But I do have mixed background and heritage. Today I'm wearing a flowered dress, and I'm getting very excited for spring. And, and the nicer weather.
Jolene MacDonald
I would concur with that. I was just saying before we started recording, when I went out yesterday, after all the rain. I'm located just outside of Kitchener Waterloo, and there was no snow and I was so excited that it's finally on.
Alicia Jarvis
That is a big question! So I guess I'll start a little bit with my career journey. And as I look back, because my role now, well, is kind of a full circle moment for me. And so I really wanted to get into how I got here, and then looking back on what it feels like now, and what it felt like back then.
Jolene MacDonald
That'd be great.
Alicia Jarvis
So - so I was fresh out of university in 2009, and I had no idea what I was going to do with the rest of my life. I had legal knowledge. So, I had a career- I had a degree in criminology. And I knew law school was not right for me at that time, at least. But that's pretty much all I knew was, I have this huge university debt and I need a job. So at the time, there was this internship that kind of popped up where it combined technology, business, and, and legal knowledge kind of altogether, as well as the lived experience with disability. And what that was, was the CRTC kind of told Bell, “Hey, to allow competition to come into the market, we, we want you to keep your prices the same. But we want you to use half of that money to improve your products and services for people with disabilities.” And that's where I came in was, my manager basically said, “Hey, we have this, we have this budget. We don't have any ideas.” And I'm like, “Okay, I have no money. I'm a student, and I have all kinds of ideas.” So,
Jolene MacDonald
100%. I mean, this is what we hear time and time again, is that, you know, we're qualified and not being hired, and the perception of employers and the lack of understanding, or they're rooted in, you know, their unconscious bias of what they think people need or don't need. It's something systematically that we've had to fight. I mean, I didn't experience disability personally until I was diagnosed about six years ago. I talked about all the time, I have Ehlers Danlos. It's a hypermobility type. And it's chronic pain, it's fatigue. It's, you know, sometimes I use a cane. It's all of those things. But my youngest daughter has dwarfism. And so when I saw the difference in accommodations for her even like, there's, there's so much to be done in so many ways. So it sort of became my whole life of trying to figure advocacy. And then obviously, we focus on the digital side. But I'm so glad you got the opportunities. But you shouldn't have had to fight that hard. I'm sure. It's taken a lot of effort. So yeah, thank you for sharing that story.
Alicia Jarvis
So, first of all, I'm, I'm not one to like na- labels at all. So I'm, like, I do identify as a woman with a disability that- like I do, and, and I take great power and privilege and being able to do that and Um, it is, it is something that I cherish. However, I think we all have to understand that no matter where we are in life, we will experience a disability at some point in our lives. So whether someone, whether you break an arm, as a child playing on the playground, or you have surgery on your knee later on in life, or you have a permanent disability like I do, we will all experience some sort of disability in our lifetime. And we have to get to a place where we're ready to kind of admit that, not only to ourselves, but to each other, is that there is no one perfect human being that can do everything, and is amazing at absolutely everything. I'm not amazing at everything. Even though I've worn many hats, done many jobs, I'm definitely not amazing at everything I have. I have, you know, things I'm really, really good at. And I have things that I work on constantly. And that's the way that we should be viewing accessibility, is it's not for these people over here that we've put a label on.
Jolene MacDonald
That's a really great explanation of it. And I think It shocks me often that we often you know, talk about accessibility is actually for everyone. And we also talk about, you know, you could break your arm. But we also talked about, you know, curb cuts, it again, it's a physical environment, but that, you know, you're walking your baby down the street in the stroller, or you know, somebody's using a bicycle, it really benefits everyone. So trying to open people's minds to the fact that it's not just for people with the labels, like you're talking about. Unfortunately, it seems like we're the ones fighting for it most of the time. But you're right, it's it can happen to anyone at any time. I was, you know, in my 40s when it happened to me, and I was like, gobsmacked, I didn't know what to do. And, you know, just the process of figuring everything out was really complex and difficult. So the more that businesses can sort of embrace the idea that these are positive changes that are worth investing in, because there's multiple, multiple reasons, but that it will benefit everyone. And, you know, for technology. We use things on our phones all the time that were developed because of accessibility, but like how many people watch videos and listen to them anymore? They’re reading them. So like, those are all things that were developed due to accessibility. And so having people open their minds to that and understand that it's, it's really beneficial for everyone. That's awesome.
Alicia Jarvis
Well also, like we think of assistive technology, as something for people with disabilities, but all technology is assistive in nature, technology is there to assist humans,
Jolene MacDonald
Yeah, there's such a multitude of usage for so many things. And it's interesting when you have those conversations, I think when people get it, they get it, you see the light bulb moments for people. I mean, even for me, I was a designer, graphic designer for 20 years and had no idea about the smallest things that I could do to make what I did better until I knew. So that's why we love to have, you know, guests like yourself. So we can expand, you know, those concepts and make people realize and educate. So I appreciate you sharing all that information. I think that it's a great lead in to the next one, though. So this is one we talk about a lot, not just on the podcast, but elsewhere. What's your message or statement to people who don't know about accessibility, and are afraid of it? Because we often have people sort of like they get uptight about it. And they think about the legal aspect. And for us for like, we lead with empathy and education and access brand. Because we just want people to understand the benefits of it. So what do you talk to people about? Or what do you say when you maybe recognize people are afraid of it or don't even understand it, how do you start that conversation?
Alicia Jarvis
So, the way I look at it is the legal side of it is scary. Like, and this is coming from person that has that's quite a bit of legal knowledge, took criminology as a degree, the legal side is scary. And I would say go and have a conversation with a person with a disability, like you are today with me, and just have a conversation, go outside of your comfort zone, and into your community, just, you know, approach someone that you may not have talked to- talked to before in your workplace, or that parent or somebody that you know, and just have a conversation with a person with a disability because I think that that will get you over the, the, the fear and into the human side that this is about humans. It's about humans and human rights. That's the core of it, is that if, if I can walk into a business and get a coffee, someone in a wheelchair should be able to go into that business and get a coffee too. That's what it's all about. So, take someone for a coffee, and see for yourself what that experience is like, and then you will understand why we fight so hard for accessibility.
Jolene MacDonald
Yeah, I absolutely know that. And I think sometimes when I've talked to people, they're afraid to ask people with disabilities as well. And I don't know why that is. I mean, there's always the fear of maybe insulting someone or they get sick and tired of hearing it. You know, I don't know much about your lived experience, but with my daughter, you know, she's a little person and now it's fairly obvious. People stare all the time. I mean, but I wish they would just ask something instead, you know, like, I think we need to teach people how to approach sometimes as well so they won't be afraid or they're not miss-educated. It's certainly a difficult process. I know, when we've been out and we've met other people with dwarfism. I try- and I'm always even worried about going up because they probably get that all the time, but - not unfortunately but fortunately, the last time we met someone, my daughter was with me. So I said, Hey, you know, I'd really like to meet because my daughter has a different kind, but you know, can we chat, because it's always great to have older person's perspective for her. So, is there any recommendations on that, that you have?
Alicia Jarvis
I think that, because I also get stared at a lot, and as a child, I used to get very frustrated by that, I would actually get physically angry, and but I've learned, though, that if you if you start the conversation with “Hi, would you like to ask me any questions?” And I think just normalizing that for people that it's okay to ask questions. What's not okay is to assume if someone can or can't do something. Don't assume, ask. Because there's invisible disabilities, that someone may actually not be able to do something that you think they can. And then the opposite occurs with me who has a physical disability that's visible, is people often think I can't do things when I actually can.
Jolene MacDonald
I think we've had some of the same situations. I think, you know, it gets tiring, I can see my daughter's face when we're out. Sometimes she can ignore it. But sometimes it's it gets really tiring. But it's always more of the adults that are the problem, you know, with being inappropriate or staring or, you know, shunning their kids, like you said, but I've always sort of said to her that, you know, there's ways to answer you don't have to go into all the details, but simple answers for children, they just get it. And you know, just about starting that conversation. I mean, you don't just roll up to one somebody out of the blue and go, what's wrong with you? You know, that's not the right way to do it. Although some people do that. You know, it's just it's about having those conversations. I'm not sure still to this day, why society is the way it is. But I think we can unlearn those things and just have those conversations. So thanks for sharing some of your experiences with us on that as well.
Alicia Jarvis
I think the other thing is like, knowing, knowing yourself, because we, we don't have an obligation to answer and we don't have an obligation to engage. And that's, that's one thing I've kind of learned over the years, like I said, as, as a child, I would get kind of angry. And the one thing I sort of learned was, you know, I can choose, I can choose just not to engage, and that's okay. And this is the part of accessibility that, you know, I'm trying to teach now is that it's not up to the disabled person to teach you. There are books there are podcasts. There are all kinds of resources out there, that are available. Let's stop putting the onus on, on particularly the children to explain why they're different. And just accept that people are different.
Jolene MacDonald
Yeah, I 100% agree I could never, from a very young age, I never understood why people cared that others were different. And maybe that was something that I knew was gonna happen later on in life. I don't know, I remember, you know, in high school, I taught the classes, you know, different, different generation back then. But I taught the classes that were segregated, like it was one of my credits with kids with Down Syndrome and Autism and things like that. And I could never understand why people treated them the way they did. Like I just, it just didn't make sense to me. And like, everyone is a person. And we all bring value in different ways. And hopefully, the more we have these conversations, the more we can change people's, you know, biases and perspectives on that. But it shouldn't be just the children. But I do know that we need to certainly integrate that more into the education systems for sure.
Alicia Jarvis
That's a, that's a really big question. But I think I would sum it up in this way is that organizations, in general need to understand that in order to serve Canadians, they have to represent Canadians in our workforce. And so, if you, if you don't account for diversity, equity, inclusion, you're going to get left behind in a lot of ways. Because you're not going to serve the customers you've, you've attempted to serve. And you're not going to be reflective of the communities that you're in as well. And that will, that will reflect back on your business, your products, everything. So if you're not thinking about diversity, equity, inclusion and accessibility, from a bigger standpoint than just HR, now is the time to start. Because it's not just [an] HR problem, it is a business imperative, that, yes, it will make you money. Yes, all of those things, the business case is solid. But beyond that, is it will just make better things and better products, and be able to serve the communities that you're attempting to serve better.
Jolene MacDonald
That was super well said, I can't agree with you any more than 150% on that. I think it's, you know, as soon as you- everybody's constantly changing, we're always evolving, you know, as businesses as people, it's just another piece that we should integrate, and it shouldn't be something that we have to force. So I'm really appreciative of all your insight on that. I wonder if you have anything else you'd like to talk about or add about our conversation, particularly, you know, equity and diversity, inclusion, of course, accessibility, but I'd love to hear any other thoughts that you have.
Alicia Jarvis
So, I think another thing is that is businesses shouldn't really start to look at the intersectionality of people's experiences. I know we talked a lot about disability today. But, the reason why I bring up my background, my heritage, even where I come from; I, I am a small-town girl living in Toronto now. But all of those experiences shape who I am today, and we need to realize that too, is that just because you speak to one person with a disability does not mean that that experience is conducive to everyone with that same disability. It's those ex- those other factors shape who a person is. And so when we talk about accessibility or disability inclusion, we have to account for those extra factors as well. Because if we don't, then we are actually doing a disservice to the accessibility profession, and also to the companies and businesses that we work for. Like, case in point, when we're like talking about 2020, and you know, what happened with Black Lives Matter and all of that is that, think about what would happen with a black male who happened to be deaf, as well, right, is that, racism and ableism and all these things, they're not silent. They, they feed into one another. Right? And so when we look at what, what causes certain behavior, we have to understand that often, it actually also comes from an ableist standpoint of someone not believing that someone is capable of doing something, or someone is believing that someone is capable of doing something, when they're not, it's based on assumptions. And that's back to my earlier comment on let's not assume and just ask.
Jolene MacDonald
That is some of the best advice that I’ve heard on our podcast, because you know, nobody’s experience is the same, it doesn’t mat- you know, disability is different for everybody; there’s no- there’s a full spectrum of it, but then you add, like you said, the intersectionality of, you know, race, gender, cultural background, were they raised small town, big town, you know, how- if they grew up with, you know, any kind of money or no money, like, the poverty versus, you know, having something totally different; there’s so much to add to that and it doesn’t – everyone goes “Well how do I know that I’m, I’m going to do the right thing,” I said “You don’t but you have to try and there’s no such thing as 100/% perfect but you have to try and make the time to understand it and at least make the changes to do something better.” So, I really appreciate that insight Alicia, thank you very much.
Alicia Jarvis
You’re welcome.
Jolene MacDonald
Well, that is the end of our podcast today and we’re so grateful that you could join us and provide all the insight and if there’s anything else you want to add, please feel free to do so, but we look forward to being able to launch this and always appreciate everyone’s feedback, so thank you so much Alicia.
Alicia Jarvis
Thanks for having me.
[End of the interview]
Why Access Matters: A podcast by Accessibrand (thoughts and talks about accessibility)
Hello again everyone!
I am Jolene from Accessibrand, and I want to thank you for listening to the 9th episode of “Why Access Matters”.
You just heard a conversation that I had with Alicia Jarvis.
Please take a moment to reflect and focus on these questions, and ask yourself what you think:
[Music]
Please send us your thoughts, ideas, and any feedback you have to our email, Jolene [at] Accessibrand.com, or in the comments at our Apple Podcast page and Castbox, or under our posts on social media; we love when people connect there, and you can find those in the description box of our episodes.
[Music]
Well, we’ve reached the end!
I am Jolene MacDonald from Accessibrand. Thanks for your patience and time in listening to me, my colleagues and our special guest, Alicia Jarvis, in our 4th episode of the 2nd season, and 9th episode overall of “Why Access Matters”.
The next episode will follow on the last Friday of May 2023, but until then, please:
Please consider checking out our website if you need any accessibility services and would like to utilize the valuable lived experience and expertise of persons with disabilities. You can visit our website at: www.accessibrand.com.
Why Access Matters: A podcast by Accessibrand (thoughts and talks about accessibility)