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[Opening]
“How do people who cannot see your website well or at all, use your website or products?”
I am Jolene MacDonald, and this question is something we will be touching upon today, in the 4th episode of our podcast, “Why Access Matters.”
In this episode, and with continuing focus on “Making your brand accessible,” we want to talk about people with visual difficulties and other visual disabilities and how accessibility is crucial for them too.
We think it’s important to think about the tools and approaches that people with different kinds of visual disabilities need to navigate a sighted world, not just from a personal awareness standpoint, but also from a development and design standpoint, to help developers, designers, and all of us to understand the principles for creating accessible websites, web applications, browsers, and other web tools.
Let’s take a moment to think about how we define visual disabilities.
[Music]
Have you ever heard of “W3C?” “W3C” is a short form referring to “The World Wide Web Consortium,” which is an international community where Member organizations and the public work together to develop Web standards. W3C’s mission is to lead the Web to its full potential – accessibility for all.
Regarding visual disabilities, W3C’s website states that: “Visual disabilities range from mild or moderate vision loss in one or both eyes (“low vision”) to substantial and uncorrectable vision loss in both eyes (“blindness”). In addition, some people have reduced or lack sensitivity to certain colours (“colour blindness”) or increased sensitivity to bright colours. These variations in perception of colours and brightness can be independent of visual acuity.”
They also state that “People with visual disabilities typically rely on changing the presentation of web content into forms that are more usable for their particular needs. For example:
Enlarging or reducing text size and images;
Customizing settings for fonts, colours, and spacing;
Listening to the text-to-speech synthesis of the content;
Listening to audio descriptions of video in multimedia;
Reading text using refreshable Braille.”
They conclude that “For these web browsing methods to work, developers need to ensure that the presentation of web content is independent of its underlying structure and that the structure is correctly coded so that it can be processed and presented in different ways by web browsers and assistive technologies.”
For example, some assistive technologies rely on lists, headings, tables, and other page structures so that web browsers and assistive technologies can identify them. This is why W3C stresses the importance of structured and properly coded web content.
And this conclusion brings us to an important sentence that we emphasized in our last episode: “An accessible design supports different presentations of web content and different ways of interaction.”
[Music]
Now that we’ve started thinking and talking about visual disabilities and accessibility, let’s focus on some examples of barriers for people with visual disabilities
-Images, controls, and other structural elements that do not have equivalent text alternatives.
-Text and images with insufficient contrast between foreground and background colour combinations.
-Text, images, and page layouts that cannot be resized or lose information when resized.
-Video content that does not have text, audio alternatives, or an audio-description track.
Take a moment to imagine how frustrating it would be to carry out a task, set an appointment, or grocery shop online if websites didn’t function properly for your use. Pretty frustrating, right? This is why good design and development is so important!
[Music]
Now we want to go beyond thoughts & theoreticals. Aiming for a better understanding of how important it is to break down barriers, I talked to Andrew Tutty.
Andrew is the lead auditor and web tester at Accessibrand.
Andrew has also sat on many boards and committees including; The Physically Handicapped Citizen’s Association, Halton Hills Accessibility Advisory Committee, and most recently sat on the Grand River Accessibility Advisory Committee, where we met each other!
Andrew has Retinitis Pigmentosa but this hasn’t slowed down his sense of humour or his dedication to helping others.
In our conversation, he spoke about his lived experience and addressed many key points about how to move toward a more accessible world.
[End of Opening]
[Music]
Why Access Matters: A podcast by Accessibrand (thoughts and talks about accessibility)
Jolene MacDonald
Hello, everyone. My name’s Jolene McDonald, and I am the host of Why Access Matters. This is the fourth episode of our podcast, and today, we’re talking with Andrew Tutty to hear his thoughts and experiences about accessibility. So welcome, Andrew.
Andrew Tutty
Hi.
Jolene MacDonald
Would you like to tell us a little bit about yourself?
Andrew Tutty
Well, I was diagnosed with Retinital pigmentosa (R.P.) when I was 24 years old. So that was many, many years ago. And since then, it has progressed and is now at the point where I am totally blind, mostly, I have light perception. So I’ve been travelling this path for many years, and as it’s declined, my journey has actually changed over time as I’ve had to adapt to different things, as things went away or my eyes changed. So that was a big challenge to try and find…well you-well, you just get used to one set of circumstances with the way the world looked and then it would change, and you’d have to readjust. So it’s been an interesting few years, I must say.
Jolene MacDonald
So when you talk about adjusting, is that because you, like, you lost your vision so slowly, like you had to adapt so much to those changes with seeing some things and then some light and then nothing.
Andrew Tutty
Yeah. I mean - at the time, something would change, and then what you used to see you couldn’t see anymore, but you don’t know that because of the way this particular disease affects the retina. You don’t know that you’re not seeing until you’re really not seeing, like now I know for sure, but in the early stages it- you almost felt like that there was a lie
Jolene MacDonald
Well, thanks for sharing that. I know based on obviously your condition and going blind, you’ve now brought that, you know, your disability into the lived experience with your work and accessibility. So how does that feel for you? Like, tell us about that journey about, you know, going blind and then not being able to work with what you were doing before. And now you’re part of our team, which people don’t know you’re our lead auditor. So how did- you know, that journey? Can you tell us about that?
Andrew Tutty
Well, when I was first diagnosed at that time, I was a driver; I did, you know, jobs that had a driving component to them. I was a bus driver for the city of Calgary and was, you know, driving people around to their jobs. So that was a huge, huge change. And probably still, I don’t notice it quite so much to this day. I don’t feel it quite so much, but certainly, at the time, that was a big, big change in my life that I was no longer able to hop in a car and go wherever I wanted to go. So I got involved with a course at the Canadian National Institute for the blind, and it was an introduction to computers. And this is back in the eighties, late eighties before the internet was available to the public.
So at that time, the challenge was just to be able to access the computer period and some of the programs that were involved at the time, which were perfect, which was a big one that we used and Lotus for spreadsheets. So because I had a vision, I was using a screen, not a screen reader that reads the screen, but a screen magnification device at the time. And that was- worked well for me. After I took that course, I eventually got a job with a financial institution and started out in what I would consider kind of like a secretarial pool, if you will, doing admin work. And then, I moved into the company to become an auditor of their computer systems. So over time, I went from just auditing AS 400 computers right through to auditing large computer centers here in Canada.
And I even had a chance to travel. So my vision at that time was substantially more than what it is now. And I could see the writing on the wall that there was no access to those computer systems. And, and it didn’t look like there was going to be, especially something that was mobile. If I were going to different computer centers, I’d have to have something with me that would allow me to access the computer systems on their site. Cause it wasn’t ubiquitous or universal, which is still the same issue today. So that went away with- as my eyes started to deteriorate. And I- I moved on from there. I was moved to more of a volunteer-type position in the community. And that’s where I lent my expertise since then. And then, of course, with Accessibrand, I’ve found some great opportunities.
Jolene MacDonald
Thanks for sharing that. Andrew, I know you, and I met on a municipal advisory committee, and you gave me some of, you know, your background, and that’s how we got chatting about doing web audits. How did you get into like auditing websites?
Andrew Tutty
Well, it was really something that it just kept nagging at me in those meetings, in particular when participants would come and look for advice. And the first thing I noticed was that their website was not quite accessible.
Jolene MacDonald
Especially nowadays, everything we have to do is online, right.
Andrew Tutty
Absolutely. If you cannot get online, then, you know, what’s your alternative? You have to try and find a phone number, especially when you’re dealing with the government. You know, how do you find the phone number, you know?
Jolene MacDonald
Yeah, absolutely. So, thanks for sharing that. I know one of the things that you and I talked about too is, you know, it’s one thing that we volunteer our time, but people need to understand the value of paying for lived experience that, you know, not just asking someone with a disability to test or audit their product for free, you know, it’s important to value that experience and, and that’s how their products are going to make it better. And so that’s why- that’s why you are our lead auditor. So we can make sure that people with disabilities and particularly yourself, that we can tell clients and let people understand how significantly important that is, you know, to, to keep auditing and making sure that we pay for that lived experience.
Andrew Tutty
Yeah, well, it’s critical actually, because, I mean, if you look at the dis- disability community worldwide, you’re talking about a 15% of the population globally that has a disability of one sort or another. And if you look at the community that is blind or visually impaired, their employment rate is significantly depressed. People don’t want to take the chance to hire somebody who’s blind. They have no idea what my ability- what their abilities are; for instance like I, my wife and I have a daycare, so I do all the computer work for that daycare, plus I cook. So if I can cook in the kitchen and have learned how to manage cooking in the kitchen and taking care of the children to the degree that I can, then I can learn pretty well anything. You know, if, if I need assistance at time times, that’s, that’s, that’s a valid thing, right? To be able to ask for assistance and for somebody to say, Hey, I can help you out there for this particular problem that you’re having. But yeah, it’s critical that people start to value people for being people.
Jolene MacDonald
Yeah. Yeah. And I think it’s, it’s that social model versus a medical model where, you know, we talk about- a lot about people feeling sorry, because we had disabilities, you know, our team, primarily everyone on our team has a disability themselves, but that’s what makes us the experts and trying to get people to understand that having, you know, us test or work on their products is just as big a credential as, you know, having a diploma because they need that. And if they want their products to be successful, they should be paying for that lived experience and not, you know, undervaluing what our, you know, our values are or what our work experience is just because something might have changed. Yes, we may not do things the same way, but we can still do them, just in a different way. So it’s about that flexibility. That sort of leads us into the next question. What’s your message to people who don’t know about accessibility and are afraid of it?
Andrew Tutty
Well,
Jolene MacDonald
Yeah. And not to mention for the businesses that, you know, we talk to and others that we hope to talk to, it’s the potential of earned income that they could have. You know, what is it? We said 22% of candidates, 15% worldwide, are visually impaired alone, which is 1 billion people worldwide. If you had just made a few changes to your website, it’s not a lot of money, but it’s a lot of money you can lose. Like there’s millions of dollars of revenue they could be earning, you know, maybe not each one individually, but trying to, I guess, get people to look at things differently because a lot of people are afraid of accessibility because of the fines or they’re scared about where to, you know, start, I think it all comes down to money a lot for businesses, but if they just started with one small thing, you know, the opportunities are so much bigger for them in a lot of other ways too.
Andrew Tutty
Yeah. It reminds me of a Bill, Bill Murray movie[What About Bob], you know, Baby Steps. Yeah. You know, and that’s, that’s how you start, you know, you have to start somewhere. And there’s lots of help. I mean, you know, we have the internet, and if you want to learn about accessibility, it’s everywhere on the internet; everything’s on the internet. So you know, the information is there. And, and you know, let’s, let’s utilize it.
Jolene MacDonald
Yeah. I think one of the things, you know, this is one not necessarily part of the conversation we’re going to talk about, but you know, the idea of overlays with websites, you know, people are being told they can fix accessibility so quickly with these plugins. It’s low dollars X a month. But what people don’t realize is that it might be good for someone who has cognitive disabilities and can click buttons and change the, you know, the patterns and colours and the font. But for someone like yourself who uses Jaws, those overlays actually cause more problems. Do they not?
Andrew Tutty
Yeah. They-they-they impede my ability to use the product that I have with all the power it has that that product has; I don’t need additional interferences. And that’s how I look at it. It’s an interference; I have to navigate out it away from it. And it doesn’t always react well with what I’m trying to view and how I’m trying to interact with that particular website. It’s really just a paint job. Because underneath, the website is still inaccessible.
Jolene MacDonald
Yeah. It’s so important to put accessibility into the beginning of your project, not to complete it and add it later. I just wanted to add that thing about overlays, because people ask often about plug-ins, and with our audits, we see these things. So just a note to everyone out there, please don’t use them. They really don’t benefit anyone in the long run. They are a temporary fix. So, you know, if you need a bridge to get to the next step, that’s great, but for a long term, it’s really not the solution. But thanks for adding that, Andrew; I think that really leads us into the next sort of topic is, why accessibility is essential for society, not just for people with disabilities, especially related to technology.
Andrew Tutty
Well, anything that you do to make things more accessible is going to help everybody. It-it’s just, that’s the way it is. You know, if you make your environment itself more accessible, that helps not just the person that might be having mobility issues that’s in a wheelchair or, or, or what have you, but just a person who’s older, who’s able to- can’t manipulate a doorknob anymore. But if you change that doorknob to a lever system, then they can use that. So I mean, and that’s just a small thing. But yeah, when you change things to become more accessible, I’ll give you a good example: They now have like smart devices, like even washing machines. There’s a Samsung -I’ll have to do a little advertisement here- There’s a Samsung washing machine that I saw demonstrated.
And it works through your app on your phone, and the app itself has to be accessible, and it mostly is. So you can actually do your wash from your app. There are certain things that you have to do on the machine, and you learn that, but actually, to activate it, you use the app. The app isn’t built specifically for people that are blind
Jolene MacDonald
Yeah. I think that’s the hard part of getting people to understand that it’s not just for someone with one specific type of disability, which I’ve encountered in sales throughout my last bit of my career in starting this company is, “Oh, wow. We don’t have anyone with disabilities.” I’m like, really, you probably have no idea. But some of the things I know you’ve encountered, even during COVID, because technology was rushed so quickly, you couldn’t book your second vaccine, right? There were other things that you couldn’t do because accessibility wasn’t part of the thought process. You know, you do shopping online, banking online, and all of those things. What other kinds of barriers have you faced when they weren’t accessible that you should be able to do independently but needed someone to help you?
Andrew Tutty
Yeah, well,I mean, I just had that experience the other day with banking. You know, and I, I spent an hour on the phone with the individual that may not be in charge of their development, but you know, I was trying to stress to them and show them just how inaccessible this particular app that they put out there was. There’s an agreement that you have to select. It’s a checkbox, but my phone’s voiceover, which is the accessibility tool for vision-impaired people on the iPhone, it went by the box, but the box wouldn’t appear. So obviously, the code there isn’t correct for the accessibility voiceover. So I couldn’t agree to the terms and conditions. Therefore, I can’t use the app.
Andrew Tutty
So, you know, hopefully, they’ll get that message. And I stressed, you know, who’s looking at this for you. Who’s making sure that this app is accessible before you put it out there to the general public. Yeah. You know, and that’s just one little one, see, all it takes is one thing to make it inaccessible.
Jolene MacDonald
Yeah. I think that’s another good point where we talk about, you know, they have people on their teams within bigger organizations that are specifically devoted to accessibility, but those people don’t necessarily have lived experience. So they’re using, you know, like the A.I. generators for accessibility or the quick code checkers that you know, are free. And they may have checklists, and maybe they’ve taught themselves to use some of this assistive technology, but it still cannot replace real people and these user scenarios. And that’s how we approach the projects that you and I work on, is user scenarios. Like, what is the main things you want people to be able to do on your app or your website or the PDF or whatever that digital piece is that has to have accessibility integrated into it. I know you’ve; you’ve hit quite a few roadblocks. You can get so far, and you can’t go any farther. So-
Andrew Tutty
Yeah, they’re called show stoppers.
And again, it’s like you said, you know, they may have checked all the boxes that they need to tick, but until you have an actual human being test that site out, you’re not assured that it’s successful. You’re hoping that it is successful .
Jolene MacDonald
Yeah. And I don’t think A.I. is going to replace people yet. It may eventually, but it’s certainly not there at this time. So, you know, thanks for-
Andrew Tutty
No, it will never; I don’t think it will ever replace people because people have a different way of approaching things. You know, and it, sometimes you can like, make a workaround and, and that’s something that, that we all have had to do with our disabilities. There’s a workaround. So, you know, I don’t know if, if an A.I. program’s going to, you know- because you could do a workaround and say, look, you know, this didn’t work this way, but I found a way that it can work. Maybe if you look at it from that perspective and incorporate that into your development that you know, your product would be more successful.
Jolene MacDonald
Yeah. I definitely think there’s not a hundred percent perfect in accessibility. I don’t think anyone’s the biggest expert, but what we can do as a collective is to try and take the spectrum of disabilities through the senses, you know, and try and meet that highest, most affected part of that disability maybe. But we certainly can’t mimic that. And I know we see lots of times “Oh, well I have, you know, 93%, 95%.” Okay. But what’s that last 5%? That means maybe someone can’t pay a bill, they can’t apply for a job just like, you know, Farshid and I talked about Farshid has a scooter that he uses for his assistive device. And if it’s a five-centimeter curb, he cannot get in that building. So it’s the same 5%, you know, that’s great, you got 95% of compliance, but what is that final piece? So, I really appreciate you sharing that sort of discussion on that. I think one of the final questions we want to talk about is what’s your advice to other accessibility advocates and activists or whoever wants to support accessibility? What kind of advice would you give them?
Andrew Tutty
Well, my only advice is that you have to have short memory perhaps
But by advocating for your rights as a disabled person and helping people understand that we all have these human rights and that we need to work and strive towards them. So really that’s, that’s all I can tell people, you know, you, you have to just keep at it. It’s it takes years and years and years. I mean, our constitution just celebrated its 40th anniversary and written into that was an accessibility disability portion, which, you know, just became part of the Canadian landscape within the last four or five years in law.
You know, so yeah, you, you’ve got to be able to do the little things that you do and, and hope that over time things do change.
Jolene MacDonald
Yeah. I definitely want to stress that even if you don’t have a disability yourself, like how my journey started, I wasn’t affected. It was my daughter. And once you, you know, quote-unquote, “see” what it’s like to lack accessibility, you can’t unsee it and no pun intended for you, but you know what I’m saying? Like, you can’t ignore it once, you know it. With some of our audits we’ve done, once they saw you demonstrating Jaws, they knew they had to make those changes, but sometimes they don’t feel that compelled to do that until they visually experience that. Or however you want to put that. So I think even for people who don’t have that disability themselves is to take the time to learn, don’t be afraid of it, and, you know, keep pushing for it. Because like you said, in the beginning, we’re all going to have some sort of, you know, disability at some point in our life due to aging or an accident, even if it’s temporary with a broken leg like we’re we’ve got to think differently. Right?
Andrew Tutty
Yep. Absolutely. And I mean, you know, part of that audit process, one of the things that I, I like to stress is that you know, take, take the half-hour after the audit is done and do a screen share with me so that you can see yourself just how these tools act on your website, you know, because if it’s not Jaws it’s N.V.D.A., or it’s the windows native accessibility app, they’re all the same for the most part. They use the same keystrokes because you’re accessing everything through the keyboard. They may react a little differently at times, but for the most part, they’re the same. So, you know, to have that experience rather than just looking at an audit going, well, this is wrong and this is wrong and this is wrong to, to see it in action and hear it from my perspective I think it brings some clarity.
Jolene MacDonald
Absolutely. It’s definitely been an interesting journey just to see what, you know, our team has experienced in their lives and what our clients experience. But I think if people can remember that if you build accessibility into your projects at the very beginning and make it part of your product or your roadmap, it won’t be that difficult. So try and add a new step to your project. Start, you know, integrating into the beginning; we’re still doing a lot of band-aid fixes as our other consultants, but something I also talk about is all of us working together. We shouldn’t be siloed in the accessibility community. After all, we can all work together because, you know, we’d love to be out of work because that means that we have a fair and equitable world. So I think that’s just valuable information to share. Do you have anything else you would like to share or say, Andrew? I know you always have lots of great things, but-
Andrew Tutty
I have one movie quote.
Jolene MacDonald
Okay!
Andrew Tutty
And you just reminded me of it
Jolene MacDonald
Okay!
Andrew Tutty
If you build it, they will come
Jolene MacDonald
Andrew Tutty
Well, thank you for giving me this opportunity. I really appreciate it.
Jolene MacDonald
Absolutely, thank you.
[END OF INTERVIEW]
Why Access Matters: A podcast by Accessibrand (thoughts and talks about accessibility)
This podcast is published thanks to funding from C.C.R.W. (Canadian Council on Rehabilitation and Work)
C.C.R.W.’s Mission is to promote and support meaningful and equitable employment of people with disabilities. Check out their services at: C.C.R.W. [dot] org.
[Closing]
Hello again everyone!
I am Jolene from Accessibrand, and thank you for listening to our podcast “Why Access Matters”. You just heard a conversation that I had with Andrew Tutty.
Please take a moment to reflect and focus on some parts of what he said and ask yourself some questions:
Andrew talked to us about the fact that 15% of the global population is disabled and, sadly, so many employers pass over visually disabled candidates due to their disability. Still, he rightly remarked that “They have no idea what my ability and their abilities are. My wife and I have a daycare, so I do all the computer work for that daycare and cook.”
Take a minute to think of people who work, regardless of any barriers or disabilities. Would you employ someone who could execute the tasks you needed, but in a different way? Why or why not? We’d love to hear your thoughts!
If you have a disability and work, please reach out to us; we welcome your perspectives as well!
Andrew said something very poignant when he was asked for any advice for those who might be hesitant to confront disability and accessibility. He said, “Embrace it! because one day, you will be disabled and require some accessibility tools to help you manage as you grow older and as you become infirm.” Do you see yourself becoming disabled in the future? How would you handle it? Do you find it a scary prospect? Please share your thoughts with us.
Andrew also remarked on the knee-jerk reactions some people have when interacting with people with disabilities, including the visually disabled. He said, “When I tell people I’m blind, their first response is, oh, I’m sorry… Well, why are you, sorry? You didn’t do anything. And I’ve lived with this, and I’ve learned to live with this, and it’s who I am. It’s part of who I am.” Have you ever responded in this way before, or had someone respond this way to you? How did it make you feel? Please reach out to us and share your stories!
We hope these questions and prompts, along with my conversation with Andrew, have resonated with you and provided a different perspective on how you view disability, accessibility and employment.
Because, our motto is, as always: “Accessibility is necessary for some of us, but beneficial for all of us.”
[Music]
Well, we’ve reached the end!
I’m Jolene MacDonald, the founder of Accessibrand, and the host of our podcast, “Why Access Matters”. Thank you for taking the time out of your day to listen to me and my colleague and special guest, Andrew Tutty, in our 4th episode of “Why Access Matters”.
The next episode will follow on the last Friday of October, the 26th, but until then, please:
- Send us your thoughts and ideas!
- Follow our podcast in pod catchers like Apple Podcast, Google, Spotify or any other platform you listen to podcasts on,
- Check out the “blog” tab on our website to read articles by our fabulous guest Andrew Tutty and follow our admirable sponsor C.C.R.W. via the links in the description of our podcast, and
- Don’t forget to introduce us to your friends, family and network!
Please consider checking out our website if you need any accessibility services and would like to utilize the valuable lived experience and expertise of persons with disabilities. You can visit our website at: www.accessibrand.com
Why Access Matters: A podcast by Accessibrand (thoughts and talks about accessibility)
This podcast is published thanks to funding from C.C.R.W. (Canadian Council on Rehabilitation and Work)
C.C.R.W.’s Mission is to promote and support meaningful and equitable employment of people with disabilities. Check out their services at: C.C.R.W. [dot] org.